choice and will

is

conscious choice

the same as

free will

 


Pictures by bvdb (whoisbert) june 2014 @home – Samsung GTi8260 – 20140606_081257

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34 thoughts on “choice and will

  1. Considering the ”action potential” mechanism in our brain, consciousness is a few ms ahead ”free will”. Thus, it seems (in a philosophical way of thinking) that C encapsulates FW wich means that can not be the same, but the debate goes on… (If you find some time take a look at this interesting talk : http://iai.tv/video/fate-freedom-and-neuroscience )

    • I was thinking something like that too … although I see a lot of misinterpretation of these neuroscientific findings. To me it only proves that mental mind is just a machine. An interpreter. Where the action potential, ‘consciousness’ comes from is much more interesting 🙂

      • …machine that believes in its free will…unbeatable and sometimes disastrous combination 🙂
        It proves the same to me, indeed, but should I accept this ?

        • I do not always accept the interpretation of the machine, but the machine provides me with the information, so it is clearly the limiting factor to my freedom of choice 🙂

          • Your (or mine) action-decision, of not accepting, is the point. What makes me to accept or not ? and why I ‘m so uncertain about this ”machine” I already have ? It seems to me like dreaming a ferrari while driving a skoda (or vice versa 🙂 )

            • Why I am uncertain about the machine, is because I know it is fallible. It is a question about freeing myself of the google-in-my-head that is inherently limited because it can only know what happened in the past. To me it is the question of being the driver of the skoda, or only the skoda.

    • thank you for visiting
      will seems to be mental only
      choice doesn’t have to be a mental process
      body can choose the food right for it
      emotional: what feels good feels good

      there is also a spirtitual side inside me that can make a choice

      so there is a difference in that consciousness is all encompassing, while will seems to only be related to the conceptualization machine in my head,
      but then, … who am i to claim this comment is true 🙂

  2. But neither will nor consciousness might be confined only to neuropsychology … and then yes, the google-in-my-head will certainly preceed any act of intervention.

    • That’s fair enough; hard materialism isn’t my bag; though will and volition will have their markers in that domain. As to consciousness, anyone can make any claim they like – all this talk about a word . . .

      My point is that we can at least discover evidentially where we’re going wrong in our assumptions and beliefs – ‘via negativa’ sort of thing; you know, ‘not this, not this.’

      And anyway, what the hell is ‘choice’ Bert? Another word, another appearance but not an actuality?

      • for me choice is that moment when I don’t want to blindly follow the first option from the machine in my head — but then again, all options are coloured by the limited experiences, methods and objects stored inside the machine, and will only seldom point out of the box.
        Perhaps the latter doesn’t come out of the machine at all, and might be called intuition.

        • Again, fair enough. ‘That moment’ which you describe, may in fact be an affirmation of a process already underway (as evidenced by B. Libet and others), rather than the selective process which it appears to be. The proprioceptive sense that comes with that moment (I feel that I am doing something/making a decision), is what fools us into believing the appearance to be what it is not. Just food for thought Bert; no point to prove. ❓

          • Still, it would be very interesting and insightful to have my personal direct visual feedback inside the NMR scanner of what happens and when. 🙂 for the moment there is only interpreted, hence inexact, sequencing of events.
            I’m very grateful for these conversations on this blog. It is a very enriching experience.

  3. No; free will involves choice which may be conscious or unconscious! Good question though; it took me some minutes to work out 🙂

  4. free will is the universal state of having choice, conscious choice is the action of putting free will into action…maybe (?)! Does bring up level of current access to living potentials within choice as well. Up for work as it is early here in USA for deep thoughts, but will be fun to think about this question today. -x.M

  5. Wow, that’s a to deep question to answer in the early morning, Bert. We have to think about it. The leaf is Pawsome 🙂 Pawkisses for a Happy Weekend…and we’ll be back, if we know the answer 😉

    • so do i 🙂 a choice is always limited by the visible options, … next is the question what is conscious(ness) and even more elusive and conceptual, what is will

      • If we say that both conscious choice and free will are limited by the visible options as you are suggesting here, then they are the same. And you’re left with the question what is consciousness itself… the question is the answer – consciousness of consciousness?

        • will seems to have an action factor, a direction outwards, while consciousness (if the same as awareness but this is all just a game of words, isn’t it) seems to be having a direction inwards …

          • Will, and the outward action factor, is based on ‘the limited visible options’, and the consciousness (or conscious awareness) that is embodied in this mind/body organism is a part of universal consciousness. Some people call that God. Buddha didn’t have words to describe it…

            • My mind asks whether universal consciousness is real or bogus. My mental mind is applying logic to “not enough data”, and wants to reject what it doesn’t understand. Then whoisbert tries to be in the unknowing, looking at options and paradoxes 🙂 and smiling on them.

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